Artethica

Mes modifications sur fr.wiki proviennent du English Wikipedia.

féminisme

Hi. I speak to you in english because it's the language you use in féminisme:discussion. Relation between US and France concerning feminism is very interesting. I started reading Gender Trouble, which was translated in french very lately and I'm suprise how much Butler know about French feminism. And now in France we "import" these reflexions. Exchange of ideas is so much productive sometimes :) By the way, if you need help in English->French translation about feminism, feel free to ask. I'm trying myself to translate Gender Trouble here, I wouldn't say no if you ask to help me ;) Léna (d) 19 février 2008 à 18:23 (CET)

Dear Lena, thanks so very much for your encouraging message. Yes, you will be surprised what an enormous influence French theory has both in USA, in England and in fact in the whole of Europe. In France, it seems, people are the last to appreciate the French philosophers, and in particular the French women thinkers, that we are reading with eagerness for some 15 years now. People like Butler are reading not only Lacan but also Irigaray and Kristeva, and in the recent years also Ettinger who is becoming such an icon for women since she is both artist and theorist, while in France she remained, so I am told, almost unknown to the public (though recognized by people like Levinas, Guattari and Lyotard who wrote on her and with her). I would love to get your help in the pages where I will try to make some modifications. Unfortunately I am zero at translations to English since I am dislectic, but I am very glad that you translate Butler, and I will surely read. All best wishes, and I will contact you if I need help. I have put some modifications in the "Feminisme" and in "Gender studies" pages. If you have an idea about related pages let me know. I would like to translate at least the sites of Ettinger and of Griselda Pollock from English to French, but this is lots of work. Perhaps you can help me little by little, a sentence at a time, when you feel like it and if you wish. Best regards and thanks again,and I also left a message on your pageArtethica (d) 19 février 2008 à 18:49 (CET)

Maud Manoni

Hello, the problem doesen't come from the category itself : it is perfectly justified, but as the category french analyst is part of category analyst (this is the meaning of fille, the mother category is analyst and the daughter category is french analyst) it should not be added. Hope this is understandable, as my english is not good enough for rather complicated discussions. Regards p-e 21 février 2008 à 17:56 (CET) voir aussi ici

In fact, I didn't look to other analyst (men) so I didn't realize ther where such difference. I only foloww this article on Maud Mannoni. Maby the best thing to do would be to write to the projet:psychanalyse. I will ask them p-e 21 février 2008 à 20:41 (CET) link to the discussion

• Monique Schneider, Janine Chasseguet-Smirguel

Bracha Ettinger

• Admettons...
  • Comment une femme qui fait tant de choses, à tant d'endroits sur la planète, dans des champs tellement différents, parvient-elle à voir des patients sur 3 à 5 ans ou plus, à 3-4-5 séances (de 45mn ou 50') par semaines 42 semaines par année ne relève à mon sens pas de la psychanalyse mais de la physique quantique... Léon99 (d) 22 février 2008 à 08:32 (CET)

Dear Perky, I am working from an open wire internet, and sometimes other students or teachers work from it, so there is sometimes a confusion between contributors. Ettinger is one of the artists and analysts I work on, as I research women artists and scholars. Try her name on Google in English, there is a lot of research going on on her work, from Russia to Finland to Japan to UK and USA and Israel. There is no problem of admissibility, the number of references I can add from my own research is very big, but maybe this is not necessary-the last link added gives a picture.Artethica (d) 20 mai 2008 à 13:53 (CEST)

Dear Artethica, very good. About the links, well too many links, kill the links as we said in France (for the tax ;-)). Me, myself and I, préfère the link with the picture, because she is an artist and it is important to see her work. But which link it is ? In any case, the very best is of course to be able to illustate the article with à Commons picture. You should ask her. Yours sincerely. -- Perky ♡ ✍ 20 mai 2008 à 15:30 (CEST)

Dear Perky, you are right, the best is to put a photo from her paintings. I can try to get a photo with free rights, those are found in the google, and i can also write her an email for permission, but i do not know how to put photos in wikipedia. if i find a free common license Artethica (d) 20 mai 2008 à 15:40 (CEST) photo, can you help me to copy it from the internet to this page? Thanks Artethica (d) 20 mai 2008 à 15:38 (CEST)

Exellent ! But you must contact her first, and she has to write a ticket OTRS [1] for permission for a or more pictures. I will help you with pleasure. -- Perky ♡ ✍ 20 mai 2008 à 18:49 (CEST)

Bracha L. Ettinger

Bonjour,

Je me suis permis de re-modifier cet article en retirant les catégories "Peintre" et 'Femme artiste" en expliquant pourquoi dans les commentaires, je les répète içi : les articles doivent être catégorisés au plus précis (une femme peintre est nécessairement peintre).

Je suit votre page de discussion, n'hésitez pas à répondre içi pour que je connaisse votre position sur le sujet.

le squal (d) 22 mai 2008 à 22:53 (CEST)

Cher le squal, I object to the idea that the categorie "artist" will be for man artists, both important artist and not important artists, while women artists, even the most important of them, will find themselves under the categorie "women artists". If you feel that there are too many artists in the category "artist" this surely can be dealt in another way, that we can think about. However, as long as we do not make 2 categories: 'man artist' and 'woman artist', my idea is that the women artists of international reputation as well as man artist with international reputation will remain first of all in the major categories as 'artist' and 'painter' (and the category 'woman artist' will be supplementary). I therefore revert your last correction, and would be glad to discuss this matter further. Please do not revert it once again. The question merits some thinking. If we take out all the women artists from the general 'artist' categorie, it makes this categorie a man's categorie. Like 'human being' and 'women' instead of 'human being': 'men' 'women'.....I hope you see the problem. I already saw this problem with 'psychoanalysts' category. All the big names of men were in the major category, and the women were in sub-categories. This is very problematic. best wishesArtethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 01:11 (CEST) Look for example at the peintre: Eugène Delacroix. You have few sub-categories, as well as the main categorie. This is how it should also be for women artists, ans surely for those whose oeuvre has reached a certain international recognition. like Frida Kahlo, Sophie Calle, and others (see my contributions). Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 01:33 (CEST)

Hello,

First of all, i won't revert your modification again, i did it once because i wasn't sure you categorized this article with a thought in mind.

Your argument about the fact that in categorising all women in a sub category and not the men is a good point i think, and the actual situation force us to double categorise articles like this one. I'm not sure about what can be done about it though, maybe you should ask an admin or in the wikifourmi project page which must be the place.

Anyhow, the point you made me see needs to be discussed further in order to change the way women are categorised in fr:wikipedia.

le squal (d) 23 mai 2008 à 07:26 (CEST)

Catégorie : Recommandations

Bonjour,

Je m'aperçois que tu t'intéresses pas mal aux catégories des femmes artistes contemporain en ce moment (en tout cas c'est l'impression que j'ai de part tes quelques dernières contributions). Je voulais te signaler qu'il existe des recommandations sur ces catégories, que je t'engage fortement à lire (c'est une page très courte).

Entre autre, je veux attirer ton attention sur le fait qu'on utilise sur WP:fr uniquement les catégories les plus proches et précises. Ainsi, un artiste contemporain sera dans la catégorie Catégorie:Artiste contemporain mais ne sera pas dans la catégorie Catégorie:Artiste, car celle-ci est plus vague que la catégorie précédente.

Je n'ai par contre, par manque de temps, pas défait tes dernières modifications qui vont à l'encontre de cette décision prise sur Wikipédia, mais j'espère que tu comprends le problème et que tu ne commettras donc plus cette petite erreur à l'avenir. ;)

Daïn, the Dwarf causer ^? 23 mai 2008 à 10:21 (CEST)

Salut, il y a une distinction subtile entre une recommandation et une Prise de Décision. Merci de ton attention. Cordialement. -- Perky ♡ ✍ 23 mai 2008 à 12:33 (CEST)

Au temps pour moi. Je voulais effectivement parler des prises de décisions qui ont abouties à ces recommandations et règles.Daïn, the Dwarf causer ^? 23 mai 2008 à 12:59 (CEST)

Artethica, I see that all your talk page is in english. I'm sorry I haven't see that before. If you don't understand something I said before, please tell me, and I'll translate it or I'll make it more precise. Daïn, the Dwarf causer ^? 23 mai 2008 à 12:59 (CEST)

Thanks le squal, I appreciate that you see the point. I have no idea how to think this further but i did the minimum concerning few artists who are women and whom I believe should appear in the categorie-mère. All best wishes. Dear [[Utilisatrice:Perky|Perky ♡], I have no idea how to take this from here, in the meanwhile I have reverted to the position that existed before. I hope that this is OK. I do believe in what I wrote above: we can't leave the categorie "artists" to man only, and move all the women to "women artists". So I have put this categorie to woman who are artists in relation to the criteria of their importance to other artists and to art history and current research, all verified criteria. I work very hard to put in wiki.fr useful information on these artists.

Dear Daïn, the Dwarf, I can follow the written French somehow but can't speak or write in French. I hope that you can read my English. Best wishesArtethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 13:04 (CEST)

Dear all, for example, I think that Frida kahlo should appear as 'artist' and 'painter'. I have put these categories and they were reverted. I would like to revert back: she is first of all artist, peinter, and she is woman and she is dead as well, like Delacroix. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 13:08 (CEST) The same goes for Camille Claudel. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 13:10 (CEST)

Mary Cassatt, Frida Kahlo, Berthe Morisot

Dear friends, if you look at the categorie-mere 'Peintre' you will realize the problem. many names, more significant and less significant, while the most significant Peintre like Mary Cassatt, Frida Kahlo, Berthe Morisot didn't appear because they are only in subcategories. For the men artists we have them both in this categorie and in the sub-categories. The subject is complicated, but in the meanwhile, I do propose, to leave in or put in those who are clearly significant, including contemporary painters like Nancy Spero, Charlotte Salomon, Agnes Martin and the others I am researching and can guarantie their significance. This is surely useful for research, but also, clearly, we see that there is a problem regarding woman who are artists. Let's not decide in a hurry. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 14:31 (CEST)Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 14:32 (CEST)Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 14:34 (CEST)

Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo

See for example, Diego Rivera is first in the categorie Peintre, and then also in the other categories. For Frida Kahlo, a very great painter, and his wife, the categorie Peintre was taken out. It is this kind of blindness about the double standard for man artists and woman artists that cannot be accepted in my view. I have reverted the categorie for Frida Kahlo, while we can try to think more about this issue.Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 14:43 (CEST)

Info at catégorie:Peintre : Cette catégorie (peintre) est surpeuplée. L'usage de cette catégorie est rendu difficile par le trop grand nombre d'articles qu'elle contient. Il est donc recommandé de leur attribuer des catégories plus précises. in English : This category is over-populated. The use of this category is made difficult by the too great number of articles which it contains. It is thus recommended to allot more precise categories to them. And the recommandations of the french wikipédia are clear : Not at the same time in the 2 catégories mother and child (excuse my poor english). -- Salutations. Signé louis-garden (On en cause) 23 mai 2008 à 15:02 (CEST)

I understand you, but I suggest that you start the "cleaning" by reducing those artists that very few people care about (by verifiable standards). Please do not start by removing those few, very few, women artists who are great artists, but with some very minor artists. You can also think to put a new categorie "man painter" and not only 'woman painter", if this is the direction for a solution. For me the solution is to leave in the "mother category' significant artists, both man and woman, and if you want to reduce the "surpopulation", think by what criteria. Being a woman is not a criteria. Wht is good for Rivera is also true for Kahlo. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 15:10 (CEST) And also, I would like to add, that I personally do not see why it is important or not to have more or less people in the category, and why there is a need to do such "cleaning" of the women artists into a different category. I don't like the idea to reduce the list in an arbitrary way. When I look for information under Painters I would expect to find at least the significant names of each period, to say the least. There are verifiable criteria for that, and when we are not sure it is better to leave the name in, rather than put it out. Most names I do not recognize, even as I specialize in art history, but i do not proceed to take them off the list. The categorie 'woman' is too easy for use.... I suggest that we stop the automatic "cleaning" of the list from women painters and try to think on that problem. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 15:28 (CEST)Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 15:33 (CEST)

I think there's some missunderstanding here. By "cleaning", we don't mean to arbitrarily remove some articles from the list, but to create appropriate sub-categories and move the articles in the sub-categories, in order to have not a single artist's article in the "main" category Catégorie:Peintre. Most articles will be moved in several sub-categories (for example in Catégorie:Peintre femme, Catégorie:Peintre français and Catégorie:Peintre moderne). So woman sould and will also be displayed in those subcategories that includes both sexs. Daïn, the Dwarf causer ^? 23 mai 2008 à 15:38 (CEST)

I understand the idea. If you want, you can start by creating a category "Homme peintre" next to the category "Femme peintre" and move all the artists by their homme/femme category. If this is not a good idea, I suggest that for the moment we leave both man and the (very few) women in the main category. Man artist and Woman artist is not a category of art. It can only be there as a supplementary category, in my view. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 16:29 (CEST)

Also, what about Double nationality like Louise Bourgois? I suggest to put both nationalities and multiple sub-categories.Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 16:32 (CEST)

If someone has double nationality, then his/her article will get the two sub-categories corresponding to each nationality. Concerning man/woman categories, There's plenty of places on WP:fr where there is some special category for woman (see Catégorie:Personnalité féminine par activité for a list) when there's no such category for man. I think it's the work of some feminists on wikipedia. I totally disagree with a "homme peintre" category anyway, and I think most people on WP:fr also will. You're totally right when you say that "femme peintre" is a supplementary category. Maybe we could put these painters back in the Catégorie:Peintre, but the best solution is still to sort the "main" category. I don't like temporary solutions. :) Daïn, the Dwarf causer ^? 23 mai 2008 à 16:46 (CEST)

Hello and thanks for your interest! Actually, i think we can hardly create a "homme peintre" category, as here the general opinion about creating gender-related categories is that an article could be written about tbe subject of the category (could an article be written about men painters?). Such a category would be probably deleted. Pwet-pwet · (discuter) 23 mai 2008 à 19:29 (CEST)

As it stands now, the Peintre categorie is for man only.

Sorry, but as it stands now, except for few women paintre that I succeeded to put without them being immediately removed, only man are "Peintre" and all women are "Femme peintre". This is not possible. Don't you see? Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 16:37 (CEST)

Yes, Daïn, the Dwarf, sorry, I just saw your reply. I accept what you say. Lets keep them for the moment under peintre, and lets work toward a solution in the future. best wishes,Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 17:21 (CEST)

portail femme-feminism, categorie 'peintre' - these endless effacements

Dear Alecs.y, I have attentively added few significant women artists who are also feminists who have contributed to feminism in art history and even to feminism in psychoanalysis, into the relevant portail. I saw that you followed my interventions and you reverted them. I would like to understand what are your considerations. My field of scholarship concern all these persons, and I can explain to you about their contribution. It is also very clear from looking at Wikiedia in English, from Wiki.Books, from Wiki.Scholarship, etc. Also, there is a discussion going on, in my page, and there was the idea that for the moment we leave the categorie "peintre" for the women artists where I have put them, and for very few women artists indeed. I see that you followed my list and you have removed them one by one. I am asking you to read the discussion up here in my page. I intend to proceed to revert your modifications. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 20:44 (CEST) I took out the categorie "artiste" until this question gets more advanced, and i leave in the categorie "peintre" and please do not remove it until we understand better why important women artists disappear from the categoire-mere and men remain in the list.Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 20:52 (CEST)

Règles sur fr.wiki

Bonjour, merci de respecter les règles en vigueur sur fr.wiki qui sont différentes de en.wiki. Hello, thank you to respect the rules on fr.wiki which are different from en.wiki Alecs.y (disc. - contr.) 23 mai 2008 à 21:25 (CEST)

Bonjour, I need your explanation, why all the artists on the Peintre categorie appear both in Peintre and in Peintre Francais and other sub-categories, with some very rare women painters, like Monique David, who also appear as both Peintre et Femme peintre and Peintre Francais? while you took out all the painters that I consider that should appear in the Peintre categorie? My intention is to add to knowledge, to add useful references in the firlds of my understanding; and all my contributions go in that sense. However, if there is a rule here concerning excluding important women painters from the categorie-mere I would like to understand the rule. Every painter on the Peinter categorie has other sub-categories too, so why do you keep them in the categorie-mere? If the criterion is quality and significance, the artists I mentioned qualify. Even Artemesia is not in the list, while very minor and unknown artists remain in it. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 21:53 (CEST)

Hi again; actually the peintre category should be empty and only composed by sub-categories. But it is a mess because this general debate about categories/sub-categories has never been completely settled. Practice can differ from a category to another, and some people are reluctant to change their practice. So the statements made above by more experienced users on fr are really relevant; for the moment you should follow these recommandations even if you disagree with them. Best regards, Pwet-pwet · (discuter) 23 mai 2008 à 22:12 (CEST)

Dear (discuter) I understand your point. I also see that the "artiste" categorie doesn't contain personal names, so I took out those that I have put, in order not to create a problem where there is no problem. However, In the case of the Peintre categorie, it will be good to take out methodically, in alpha-beta order, one by one, all the artists out from the category Peintre, if this is the definitive intention, rather than remove the women painters. There is no point to take names out by any other consideration, except going one after the other. In any other case, if Renoir is in - Cassat and Artemesia shoud be in, if Dega is in - Morisot should be in. If Rivera is in- Kahlo should be in. Otherwise, this can become problematic, I believe. I will return to this question in a month time perhaps. If the same situation continues, I will then propose to add the names I have suggested, and wait until somebody takes all the names by order alphabetic. In the meanwhile I drop this question. Artethica (d) 23 mai 2008 à 22:52 (CEST)

Bonjour, le {{portail femmes}} se met avec les autres portails et non en dessous. Merci aussi de préciser pourquoi ces femmes ont été importante pour la cause du féminisme dans leur articles. Alecs.y (disc. - contr.) 24 mai 2008 à 10:19 (CEST)